Hunter's balance is not fair, here's why

MercifulMerciful Member

So I've been playing this game for a while now and I'm playing mostly as runner, so far only one game with Hunter. And now I actually think I can give some feedback, so here it is, the hunter is too op because of his abilities to counter stealth. stealth is the only option because of the other op thing about hunter, the shotgun, basically you just need to get into a Runners face and press M1 and he's dead. Stealth is way too hard because of turrets and landmines. Tbh the hunter can be avrage and your team may be good and he'll still win if he has the turrets or landmines with the shotgun.

This is what I would like to see:

Turrets: Cannot see Runners hiding in grass, but if they shoot the turret through the grass the turret will detect them
Landmines: landmines don't go off if the runner stands still
Shotgun (I don't know its name sorry) Less damage

Everything else seems fine to me, the game is extremly fun.

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Comments

  • CherryCherry Member

    1000% agree with this.

  • Double_TapDouble_Tap Member
    edited June 2018

    I've won every game as hunter so far simply because Runners suck. There's no nice way to put it, they are playing like idiots. Only going for upgrades, not capping points, and ALL rushing the blood post at the same time.

    Hunter seems fairly balanced, but you don't see that because runners don't communicate or cap until it's too late.

  • JTCRAGEJTCRAGE Member

    The hunter stun need a longer cooldown also. When I get frustrated playing runner games I go play 2 very quick hunter games. You dont need turrets or mines just run around and q stun, shotgun.

  • Mach2Mach2 Member

    The hunter should NOT have the stun and the shotgun, that's WAY too OP.

  • GoodGuyGioGoodGuyGio Member

    After today's key rain. You'll see even more "idiot" runners who don't know what to do. Simply put not many people knows how to counter hunter things. Shotgun definitely is op I agree. But thats only if you get close to Runner. To prevent hunter from closing in you can just blind and stun him. Well not many people are used to game yet. Tho some things definitely is hard to counter. I agree with that.

  • Mach2Mach2 Member

    @GoodGuyGio said:
    After today's key rain. You'll see even more "idiot" runners who don't know what to do. Simply put not many people knows how to counter hunter things. Shotgun definitely is op I agree. But thats only if you get close to Runner. To prevent hunter from closing in you can just blind and stun him. Well not many people are used to game yet. Tho some things definitely is hard to counter. I agree with that.

    Not all of us use that loadout, I myself am more of the medic.

  • GoodGuyGioGoodGuyGio Member

    Yes, everyone has their playstyles, tho sometimes they might not work against certain hunters. Thats why you gotta change things.

  • SlsaherSlsaher Member

    @GoodGuyGio i agree that the shotgun needs a nerf, i dont agree with what @Merciful said about landmines tho, the landmines have outline so you can find it EZ, it does damage yes, but the fact that a landmine need to be stepped on seems weird, i know this isnt iRL SO MBE PHYSICS is the same, but than people should jsut call em proximity mines, which they are. The turret is ok in every way except it can see through grass even if u dont tag it. if people say it has to much hp they are kind of wrong, just use 3 special arrows and one normal and its dead, and has u can animation cancel if you switch between the different arrows you can almost insta kill the turret. Thats all i have to save

  • SlsaherSlsaher Member

    @Slsaher said:
    @GoodGuyGio i agree that the shotgun needs a nerf, i dont agree with what @Merciful said about landmines tho, the landmines have outline so you can find it EZ, it does damage yes, but the fact that a landmine need to be stepped on seems weird, i know this isnt iRL SO MBE PHYSICS is the same, but than people should jsut call em proximity mines, which they are. The turret is ok in every way except it can see through grass even if u dont tag it. if people say it has to much hp they are kind of wrong, just use 3 special arrows and one normal and its dead, and has u can animation cancel if you switch between the different arrows you can almost insta kill the turret. Thats all i have to save

    Say not save oops

  • FlatopiaFlatopia Member

    @Mach2 said:

    Not all of us use that loadout, I myself am more of the medic.

    cough cough teamwork cough cough

  • JdotVeteranJdotVeteran Member

    Just played a game that hunter turret spammed, soon as turret went off and super jumped in the direction of the turret with the shotgun. you maybe get to run for like 4 seconds. and additionally you say you can just stun and blind but only one class does that. The other two classes are pretty much screwed. Hunter needs some tweaking or this game is just going to be a cult hit. and cult hit's die very fast after release. Tweak the hunter, and idk you guys have an plans to do an open beta, but you probably should. Especially with how between closed Alpha and closed Beta the turrets are the main complaint but still haven't been fixed.

  • GhostKixGhostKix Member

    I agree like every streamer i watched they have 100% win rate at hunter and the reason they give me is they are too good at the game which i say is bs if you were then you wounldnt lose game as runner so yea more then anything hunter needs some changes, like the turrets basically do the same job as reveal and it has a huge range too also its auto aim bs which should not exist.

  • FlatopiaFlatopia Member

    @JdotVeteran said:
    Just played a game that hunter turret spammed, soon as turret went off and super jumped in the direction of the turret with the shotgun. you maybe get to run for like 4 seconds. and additionally you say you can just stun and blind but only one class does that. The other two classes are pretty much screwed. Hunter needs some tweaking or this game is just going to be a cult hit. and cult hit's die very fast after release. Tweak the hunter, and idk you guys have an plans to do an open beta, but you probably should. Especially with how between closed Alpha and closed Beta the turrets are the main complaint but still haven't been fixed.

    Only one class can do that

    Well as it turns out teamwork is important! If you, as a control, notice a tormentor struggling to hold his own then maybe you can help?
    Not only that, all classes have bolts and caltrops to lose the hunter.
    The only bolt that may not help in that regard is like. NPI gain. Even then if it gets you more healing and shield bolts it sounds like a good choice to me.

  • lighttt_lighttt_ Member

    I think hunter is pretty balanced imo. the goal of the runner is to get three out, you should expect to go down or even die. If turrets couldn’t see runners hiding in grass then grass may as well make you invisible

  • ragonrokragonrok Member, Moderator mod

    I just use the assault rifle with an occasional turret.

    The thing that gets runners in trouble in my experience is they refuse to accept anything but a total victory (no one dies). This all in mindset usually ends up in everyone dead because no nodes were capped when one guy got dropped.

  • MercifulMerciful Member

    @Slsaher said:
    @GoodGuyGio i agree that the shotgun needs a nerf, i dont agree with what @Merciful said about landmines tho, the landmines have outline so you can find it EZ, it does damage yes, but the fact that a landmine need to be stepped on seems weird, i know this isnt iRL SO MBE PHYSICS is the same, but than people should jsut call em proximity mines, which they are. The turret is ok in every way except it can see through grass even if u dont tag it. if people say it has to much hp they are kind of wrong, just use 3 special arrows and one normal and its dead, and has u can animation cancel if you switch between the different arrows you can almost insta kill the turret. Thats all i have to save

    If you look at the mine you can clearly see its a landmine, but it works like proximity mine. At least in Movies/series it works more like if you step on the landmine but don't move it won't explode, it would be more fair that way. Landmines are fine but the fact that they can help the hunter to find you or kill you while you are hiding is the unfair part in my opinion. Which Is why I'd prefer it that way. If they'll become too weak increasing the radius would fix it.

  • SnozerSnozer Member

    @JdotVeteran said:
    Just played a game that hunter turret spammed, soon as turret went off and super jumped in the direction of the turret with the shotgun. you maybe get to run for like 4 seconds. and additionally you say you can just stun and blind but only one class does that. The other two classes are pretty much screwed. Hunter needs some tweaking or this game is just going to be a cult hit. and cult hit's die very fast after release. Tweak the hunter, and idk you guys have an plans to do an open beta, but you probably should. Especially with how between closed Alpha and closed Beta the turrets are the main complaint but still haven't been fixed.

    then you team should use that opportunity to cap a point seeing as he just WASTED all of his stamina.........

  • DarkyoshDarkyosh Member

    Hunters are rather strong if runners are not playing properly. Currently the lack of options and variety for the hunters is the most major issue. That and the infinite aggression issue.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member

    @Darkyosh said:
    Hunters are rather strong if runners are not playing properly. Currently the lack of options and variety for the hunters is the most major issue. That and the infinite aggression issue.

    I agree the hunter isn't exactly weak. Ultimately a good thing about this game is that both sides can't afford to make dumb mistakes because punishment comes quick.

    It is just that the 'mistake' of letting the runners get 5 parts shouldn't end the game if the runners are very coordinated. The variance on how strong runners can be needs to be 'squeezed.' Moving more NPI generation out of hunter interaction and into less aggressive sources creates something the game currently lacks, where the runners have a tempo to their behavior where they continually flow from strong to weak based on their NPI rather than having the strict dichotomy of "You either have a team able to maintain constant aggression or a team that can't."

    To do that you would need to rework NPI share to shorten downtime rather than increase uptime, and then remove all the NPI sources that reward hunter interaction (Proximity, revive, escape, assist escape, destroy object) and move that NPI either into passive regeneration or into marking.

    Likely the first one. NPI share exists to prevent runners from feeling the need to dedicate too much time to NPI gathering, which is good. It just should be that runners have to have a cooldown period after using a burst of abilities where they can either work to setup objectives, gather resources, or try to get NPI faster, rather than NPI coming so freely pacing your ability usage does not matter at all.

  • SnozerSnozer Member

    @dezzmont said:

    @Darkyosh said:
    Hunters are rather strong if runners are not playing properly. Currently the lack of options and variety for the hunters is the most major issue. That and the infinite aggression issue.

    I agree the hunter isn't exactly weak. Ultimately a good thing about this game is that both sides can't afford to make dumb mistakes because punishment comes quick.

    It is just that the 'mistake' of letting the runners get 5 parts shouldn't end the game if the runners are very coordinated. The variance on how strong runners can be needs to be 'squeezed.' Moving more NPI generation out of hunter interaction and into less aggressive sources creates something the game currently lacks, where the runners have a tempo to their behavior where they continually flow from strong to weak based on their NPI rather than having the strict dichotomy of "You either have a team able to maintain constant aggression or a team that can't."

    To do that you would need to rework NPI share to shorten downtime rather than increase uptime, and then remove all the NPI sources that reward hunter interaction (Proximity, revive, escape, assist escape, destroy object) and move that NPI either into passive regeneration or into marking.

    Likely the first one. NPI share exists to prevent runners from feeling the need to dedicate too much time to NPI gathering, which is good. It just should be that runners have to have a cooldown period after using a burst of abilities where they can either work to setup objectives, gather resources, or try to get NPI faster, rather than NPI coming so freely pacing your ability usage does not matter at all.

    the runners should have the ability to stunlock the killer for a SHORT period of time, say they baited him to point A and had someone on point B they should be able to hold him for 1 rotation, possibly 2 and then be forced to scatter. this allows runners to buy time but also allows the hunter to possibly get a down after or get to the point if he was close enough.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member
    edited August 2018

    @Snozer said:
    the runners should have the ability to stunlock the killer for a SHORT period of time, say they baited him to point A and had someone on point B they should be able to hold him for 1 rotation, possibly 2 and then be forced to scatter. this allows runners to buy time but also allows the hunter to possibly get a down after or get to the point if he was close enough.

    I agree. The power level of the runner abilities actually feel really fair. They can let a runner lose you or delay you for just long enough for them to get something done, without totally locking you out of play for too long.

    The issue is when you can just do them over... and over... and over again.

    Like after the runners lock you down for a rotation or two they shouldn't be ready to go for 5 more.

    They should be spent, forced to give up whatever they are doing to regroup, allowing the hunter a sort of temporary tempo victory if they managed to force the runners to not get what they were after while eating their NPI.

    Runner abilities are very strong, and the decision to use them should be one of grim determination at critical moments to make the day because your buddy across the map on point B needs you to survive threatening point A for just 6 more seconds. You should be able to make that call to face off against the hunter 2v1 and 'win.' Buying the time, while getting out alive to boot because you pulled it off while literally under the gun.

    You shouldn't be able casually toss out 3 stuns, miss 2 of them, and not care because you get the NPI all back anyway, or delay the hunter essentially indefinitely with 3 runners with very little threat because you have such an amazing consistent stream of defense coming in and offense going out that you can only go down if you decide to stand still in front of the hunter.

  • thirsttythirstty Member

    Turrets - Literally just outrange them or A-D-A-D strafe fire on them. Turrets are absolutely worthless for damage and right now their only use is to seek out runners in grass, dont need to nerf them any further and make them obsolete.

    Landmines - Any runner that knows how to play will just dodge through or outheal the mine/ blow it up in 2 shots. Mines are pretty much a joke because they are so visible to runners and dealt with easily.

    Shotgun - Stop running up to the hunter's face and expecting to tank a full clip.

  • DarkyoshDarkyosh Member

    Again, runners are currently far stronger if both teams are playing to full potential. It is so much so currently that 2-3 good runners will tilt a team against a good hunter. I think a nerf to NPI regent from aggression and a few more options for hunters are a good solution. I generally feel a good solution is to not nerf and instead add more. The feeling of removing something is aversion, that being said, I write down the NPI infinite aggression thing down as a bug.

  • DarkyoshDarkyosh Member

    @Snozer said:

    @dezzmont said:

    @Darkyosh said:
    Hunters are rather strong if runners are not playing properly. Currently the lack of options and variety for the hunters is the most major issue. That and the infinite aggression issue.

    I agree the hunter isn't exactly weak. Ultimately a good thing about this game is that both sides can't afford to make dumb mistakes because punishment comes quick.

    It is just that the 'mistake' of letting the runners get 5 parts shouldn't end the game if the runners are very coordinated. The variance on how strong runners can be needs to be 'squeezed.' Moving more NPI generation out of hunter interaction and into less aggressive sources creates something the game currently lacks, where the runners have a tempo to their behavior where they continually flow from strong to weak based on their NPI rather than having the strict dichotomy of "You either have a team able to maintain constant aggression or a team that can't."

    To do that you would need to rework NPI share to shorten downtime rather than increase uptime, and then remove all the NPI sources that reward hunter interaction (Proximity, revive, escape, assist escape, destroy object) and move that NPI either into passive regeneration or into marking.

    Likely the first one. NPI share exists to prevent runners from feeling the need to dedicate too much time to NPI gathering, which is good. It just should be that runners have to have a cooldown period after using a burst of abilities where they can either work to setup objectives, gather resources, or try to get NPI faster, rather than NPI coming so freely pacing your ability usage does not matter at all.

    the runners should have the ability to stunlock the killer for a SHORT period of time, say they baited him to point A and had someone on point B they should be able to hold him for 1 rotation, possibly 2 and then be forced to scatter. this allows runners to buy time but also allows the hunter to possibly get a down after or get to the point if he was close enough.

    All though I agree with you this starts to feel very poorly balanced when it comes to the blood post given as even having 2-3 short stuns with how low the time it takes to free a runner produces a balance problem, furthermore how this is a free moment to get half on any objective your team decides to sit on. I like the idea of the stuns as they are with reduced frequency at that but I think the major issue is how unfair the execution system is. It also punishes the hunter further as even draining his blood thus needing the runners to make 2-3 mistakes yet again for another shot at it. This leads the hunter to not the playing the initially intended way and now having the hunter attempt to camp people to death as a not reliable but far more effective way then the blood post. If we are to speak meta for a moment, I cannot see a reason that the blood post would be successfully able to get a kill off without major mistakes, I see the best use to send someone who you killed during a attempted camping section to temporarily remove them from the fight so the camping is 3v1 now. This still provides a issue due to how long bleed out is and the fact the runners left can simply abandon their friend if they cannot get him which shouldn't be that difficult if they wished and thus instead take 2 objectives and free the aforementioned person sent to the bloodpost.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member
    edited August 2018

    The killer just needs the ability to attack while executing. It is really strange they can't while the runners can rescue while fighting.

    While it is an asymetric game and thus that lack of mirroring isn't itself unfair, the fact that it is the hunter who is weaker at the post in every sense is really strange. Hunter, the agressive confrontational role, is punished for being confrontational in so many strange and subtle ways. Stamina vs NPI, the fact they can't agressively use powers near the post, and them not being able to fight while interacting is all insane to me.

    If the hunter and the entire runner team both fight over one objective indefinitely... the hunter runs out of resources first, and the hunter is unable to progress the game but the runners are! Moment to moment balance of runners and hunters feel good, but there is at almost every level of the game mechanics baked into nitty gritty systems that together make the runners the agressive party, the ones who win in confrontation, if the runners exploit them.

  • @Merciful said:
    So I've been playing this game for a while now and I'm playing mostly as runner, so far only one game with Hunter. And now I actually think I can give some feedback, so here it is, the hunter is too op because of his abilities to counter stealth. stealth is the only option because of the other op thing about hunter, the shotgun, basically you just need to get into a Runners face and press M1 and he's dead. Stealth is way too hard because of turrets and landmines. Tbh the hunter can be avrage and your team may be good and he'll still win if he has the turrets or landmines with the shotgun.

    This is what I would like to see:

    Turrets: Cannot see Runners hiding in grass, but if they shoot the turret through the grass the turret will detect them
    Landmines: landmines don't go off if the runner stands still
    Shotgun (I don't know its name sorry) Less damage

    Everything else seems fine to me, the game is extremly fun.

    i disagree as of now the runners are too strong. the hunter has no chance if the runners work together. if the runners don't then the hunter might be overpowered. if you have a hunter that knows what to do and a team of runners that know their role. you got a good game. i hate to say it but the hunter needs a buff.

  • dezzmontdezzmont Member
    edited August 2018

    There are so many minor mechanics and systems in the game that make it really clear the bias towards runners isn't just real, but subconsciously or not intentional.

    The superiority of NPI as a mechanic, which both allows quick refilling of your main tool and lets you maintain it indefinitely, to stamina which both can only come back from a slow drip AND is used to power both offense and defense, with many instances of the usage of stamina being negatable or even punishable through no fault of the hunter, such as the stamina startup cost for the speed boost. Hunters have no equivalent, the runner doesn't lose resources if the hunter stuns them, but the runners can listen for the boost and stun as soon as they hear the sound costing the hunter half their stamina just... free.

    The fact the hunter has an interact to execute despite the fact they don't get their tools at the execute despite the runners having their full toolset AND the execute requires winning 3 full chases AND the runners have a tool to delay the hunter from executing indefinitely while the hunter does AND the fact that execution forces you to surrender 1 half of an objective in capture mode AND the fact that if the hunter is forced to sprint any time before they get to the post they lose the post automatically AND the fact the runners have a perk to increase rescue speed but the hunter doesn't have any way to increase execute speed. So the hunter has to bust their ass to get the post... and then the post makes them go from weaker to the runners to full on joke tier. The hunter should be REWARDED for posting the runners, made stronger, made so that they almost certainly will get the kill after they did all that work, not punished.

    The entire concept of the golden crate also is a failure in that it just objectively benefits the runners for it existing. If the runners get it even uncoordinated runners have the effect of NPI share effectively. If a hunter gets it, the runners just hide for 40 seconds. The hunter doesn't even really gain a benefit vs good teams denying the crate. And the fact the hunter is a team of 1 means the crate just is another thing they don't have time to do.

    There are just so many tools the runners have that have no counter as well. Revive bolts have no counter if the hunter is forced into a bleedout victory, which they will be due to the fact the runners have a force on force advantage over the hunter. Virus stamina loss has no counterplay because once you are staminad out you can't engage the runners anymore due to sheer drop loops. NPI share I harped on over and over but the hunter can't do anything about that.

    "But it is the hunter's fault for letting the game go on long enough for the runners to get T3 upgr-"

    No it gosh darn isn't. Anyone who has played on a coordinated runner team knows how comically easy it is for runners to get all the critical T3s for your role solo, forget about if you are sharing the burden with your fellow control or support. The reason the average joe finds full upgrades hard is because they don't coordinate their upgrade plan to ensure their partner doesn't get the same T3 they are, and they search the entire map for upgrade boxes rather than just bouncing between the closest 3 they find.

    The hunter can't shoot upgrades out of your hands. They can't easily find you by camping boxes. Upgrades don't go away if the hunter "does well." This idea that the hunter should be punished for letting upgrades happen is saying the hunter should auto lose if they don't get a runner on the post in literally a minute. They can hack boxes, but that is of very limited utility as coordinated teams can just obj pressure if a support or control gets a hacked box as it isn't exactly like t1 heal and shield and stun are bad, and the runners only need 4 boxes anyway. A hypothetical support duo can just have one go NPI share and shield or heal 1, and the other can go Rez with shield. Boom, infinite NPI, full power shields, and ranged rez. 4 upgrade part cost. How many of you struggle to get 4 upgrade parts?

    Deathgarden has been consistently losing players during the free weekend, and it really isn't hard to see why. And it isn't runners, that much is obvious from the projected wait times. Despite there being 5 runner slots to 1 hunter slot, runners have Q times is allegedly 12 times longer than hunters, and it is more in reality. No one wants to be a hunter because being a hunter is an exercise in frustration and misery 1/3rd of the time. Because not only are you the weaker party, but the tools used to stop hunters basically are... bullying. Like bright flashing lights, you not being able to move, not being able to act, everything being slower, you having to reload 4 times in a row. And if you do well vs a good team you MIGHT grind them out over 12 minutes as you desperately try to go from place to place.

    It isn't fun. Like that is the worst part. It isn't even just that it is unbalanced. It is just... bad. And it gets worse every day you play it.

  • (im a runner main)

    agreed runners are way to overpowered as of now. i want to add 1 thing. the matchmaking needs to be fixed. i keep getting matched with aspirants. they should only change runners if they change the matchmaking cuz with 2 beginners facing a good hunter its a gg from the start for the runners. no chance.

    they need to look at NPI system asap mayby increase cooldown of bolts

  • MichaelMichael Member ✭✭✭

    We did address the NPI issue, and we'll implement the fix in our upcoming patch. As for matchmaking, it's part of our medium-term goals.

  • @Michael said:
    We did address the NPI issue, and we'll implement the fix in our upcoming patch. As for matchmaking, it's part of our medium-term goals.

    good to hear <3 keep it up

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