Why Even Have Executions?

There is a lot of discussion going on about fixing executions vs. leaving as is. I have a different take. Why do we even have executions?

The game revolves tension. Limited time,, hunter music being close, chases - all are very exciting. Executions are boring. The Hunter comes over and stands over your body and you watch an animation that after the first time is just repetitive.

Basically, after a down one of four things happen:
1: Instantly revived by a teammate
2: Instantly killed by the hunter
3: Ragdolled or otherwise knocked out of Hunter sight in which case you crawl to a healing chest/get revived
4: Hunter spares you, which feels pretty silly

None of these, save the first one, is in any way exciting. There's never a "am I going to escape in time!" feeling. It's pretty instantaneous to know whether you got out or not. And if the answer is not you're still stuck there through the same repetitive loop.

Instead of "fixing" executions, why not just get rid of them. Instead, make the bleed out phase of the game actually important. First, the bleed out timer would have to be reduced (has anyone ever seen a scav die do to bleedout not caused by them just walking away from their computer?) and then I think one of two options added
A: Each time a scav is down they have less bleed out time (example: 15 seconds, then 10, then 7, etc).
B: Scavs have a fixed bleed out pool (say 30 seconds). If it takes 12 seconds to get revived, you have 18 seconds on the next down. If the next time only takes 5 seconds then they have 13 seconds remaining.

I think there are four benefits to this.
1: It restores excitement. Instead of just being stuck in an animation, you actually have a count down. Each second matters. Will your team make it to you in time? Can you reach the health crate?
2: Eliminate discussion on how the Hunter is supposed to play. I'm firmly in the camp that it is a weird design decision to expect people to play for experience points vs completing the objective (getting downs vs eliminating scavs). This would eliminate the discussion entirely. Hunter objective is to down scavs, it doesn't matter whether you just want to win that instance or gain points, you still have the same goal.
3: It adds another element of Hunter strategy. Watching a body now becomes a possible option to consider. Do you camp out and actually 'hunt' the prey (instead of wildly rampaging around) in the hope of luring someone in, but risk the other's having a free map to roam around?
4: Less early eliminations. Early eliminations can ruin the game. Even if you never get early knocked out, it sucks to see most of your team knocked out in the first two minutes. Then it becomes a boring game of hide and go seek.

Maybe I'm missing something about executions, but they seem an unnecessary element that could be replaced entirely.

Comments

  • pistkittypistkitty Member ✭✭

    I proposed eliminating executions by making weapons actually lethal, but this might work as well. Only issue is your number three from the first list, which makes keeping an eye on your "kill" and possibly ambushing rescuers problematic. Otherwise, pretty solid suggestion, but my endorsement just means you'll get mercilessly attacked for it, so enjoy that.

  • DemonicDemonic Member

    See, the problem is that without instant executions, you get the problem that DBD has: there aren't any tensions to the first couple of chases. You know in Dead By Daylight that unless you've been downed and hooked twice then you have that safety net of knowing you'll still be in game if you lose so there isn't as much riding on getting caught early on. Having instant executions creates that tension. If I get spotted out and know that I'll be able to crawl and heal myself like that the tension is gone and will make those times I get away with one point of health less satisfying. Plus this could definitely encourage camping where a Hunter would just watch them crawl to a heal, get revived, then downed again and repeat. Would it be bad for the Hunter? Yep. Would it certainly happen almost every game and make it less fun for the Scav? You bet'cha. It is a major issue in DBD and it would transfer over here. Also, keep in mind that there is a focus on the individual player rather than the team like the original and that is why there is instant execution, because if we went with your method the Hunter would lose a lot of power, and could be easily manipulated by the Scavengers which they don't want to be the case. The original Deathgarden didn't have instant executions and it was horrible and made it too easy for the Runners to win. The matches are also relatively quick compared to DBD or Evolve which means dying early on doesn't lose you much XP because you can queue into the next game without a major time loss.

    Overall, while I understand the frustration with instant executions I don't think getting rid of them, allowing Scavengers to stun, or to have the execution interrupted by healing arrows is the solution.

  • TimoTimo Member

    You can actually res Runners at the same time the killer is executing them. JFYI.
    I've done this a few times running as Fog.
    In blood mode too. My Smoke bomb hides reveal.
    I've said it time and time and time again.
    The tutorial(s) should be MANDATORY!
    I feel that the game is going to suffer the same thing that happened last time.
    People that don't get all the mechanics and then profess how wrong the game is...and then leave.
    When actually its something that's never really explained to them.

  • pistkittypistkitty Member ✭✭

    @Timo said:
    You can actually res Runners at the same time the killer is executing them. JFYI.
    I've done this a few times running as Fog.

    I was complaining about this in another thread and was told it was a bug. I don't know if that's true or not, I've not seen any dev confirmation here on the forums (IDGAF about the tweeters and discords and all that nonsense, if they need to clarify something, it should be here). So that might or might not go away at some point.

    I'm actually starting to like the "reduce bleedout timer and let em die" notion the more I think about it, from a "it just makes sense" perspective. Runners are after all in the deathgarden to literally bleed and collect the blood of others. Not so much from a mechanical perspective, as runners have more than ample tools to avoid being caught in the first place. But, when given the choice between "(potentially) improve the game for everyone" and "nerf hunter",in the past Behaviour has been pretty consistant in their choices.

  • @Timo said:
    You can actually res Runners at the same time the killer is executing them. JFYI.

    You can't, actually. What is happening is you landing the res before the Hunter actually begins holding down E to execute the downed Scavenger. Happens to me all the time.

    We've risen so far that we've extinquished any other worthy game. Now the only quarry worth hunting is ourselves. And in the Garden, there is game enough for everyone.

    Deathgarden Hunter's Creed

  • CRogersCRogers Member

    @Demonic said:
    Having instant executions creates that tension. If I get spotted out and know that I'll be able to crawl and heal myself like that the tension is gone and will make those times I get away with one point of health less satisfying.

    I think what you're saying here is that anything that does away with instant executions would lower the tension of the initial down. I don't disagree really, knowing you were almost certain to get back up would lower the tension of the chase. However, I think most of the tension would remain, the small loss is a worthwhile tradeoff and some more risk taking on the part of the scavs is not a bad thing

    Plus this could definitely encourage camping where a Hunter would just watch them crawl to a heal, get revived, then downed again and repeat. Would it be bad for the Hunter? Yep. Would it certainly happen almost every game and make it less fun for the Scav? You bet'cha.

    Potentially yes, but it seems a better trade off. I'd rather be occasionally camped then instant executed because I still have possibilities in the former.

    Right now the only thing motivating a non-instant kill is points. With the switch the motivating factor is the long term effect of the game. While it doesn't solve everything (nothing ever would), I think it is better.

    Under the current system it's also going to be very hard to balance the game going forward. If some Hunters play the game where they down X number before beginning to execute, and others execute instantly, there are going to be two different sets of data for how powerful Hunters are.

    Also, the Hunter couldn't really camp the bleedout 100%. He could either keep an eye on the body, or on the lookout for scavs coming to rescue. I also presume upon getting up the scav would have a second or two of invulnerability to prevent the worst of the camping (I think that is true as is, at least I've never been downed instantly upon being brought back up even with a Hunter right there).

    Also, keep in mind that there is a focus on the individual player rather than the team like the original and that is why there is instant execution, because if we went with your method the Hunter would lose a lot of power, and could be easily manipulated by the Scavengers which they don't want to be the case.

    I feel like the current mix between individual/team doesn't work very well. If they wanted to go in a more individual direction where the scavs individual performance was what mattered, I'd understand that, but right now it works better as a team focused game (unless you want to play hide and go seek). If a few scavs go down early the remaining scavs have no chance and it becomes a variety of unfun options.

    Also, I don't think it causes the Hunter to lose power. It makes it easier on the scavs, but that can be balanced by adjusting the amount of blood that needs to be turned in to activate the gates. I don't understand how it can lead to manipulation by the scavs as I think it gives the Hunter more options to play (not only on laying traps, but makes long term Hunters far more viable).

    I don't think bleedout is the only option to replace executions, it was just my idea at the time, but I still fail to see what the executions add to the game.

  • TimoTimo Member

    @Doccy_Helfarch said:

    @Timo said:
    You can actually res Runners at the same time the killer is executing them. JFYI.

    You can't, actually. What is happening is you landing the res before the Hunter actually begins holding down E to execute the downed Scavenger. Happens to me all the time.

    Pretty sure if the both you hit it at the same time you will res first before the hunters execute timer..
    So explain to me why a hunter just stands there? If that's not the case.

  • V3SSELV3SSEL Member

    I don't mind he can execute, I just hate the fact where he can execute while they're still rag dolling, where we can't heal until AFTER they stop rag dolling. Why can't they make it so you can heal or execute as they get downed?

  • DemonicDemonic Member

    @CRogers said:
    I feel like the current mix between individual/team doesn't work very well. If they wanted to go in a more individual direction where the scavs individual performance was what mattered, I'd understand that, but right now it works better as a team focused game (unless you want to play hide and go seek). If a few scavs go down early the remaining scavs have no chance and it becomes a variety of unfun options.

    They have said that they want more of a focus on the individual after the rework, since they weren't really happy with how it was going in the original and wants it to be different than DBD. That's why we'll have individual leaderboards. And there are a few options for the Scav's if there are only a couple left. You can wait out the time, fill the blood by bouncing back and doing small amounts, or wait until the remaining people die. In DBD you have no options if the gate isn't open except for the hatch, which is rare to escape from against good killers.

    Also, I don't think it causes the Hunter to lose power. It makes it easier on the scavs, but that can be balanced by adjusting the amount of blood that needs to be turned in to activate the gates. I don't understand how it can lead to manipulation by the scavs as I think it gives the Hunter more options to play (not only on laying traps, but makes long term Hunters far more viable).

    It would since they are suppose to be canonically ruthless predators. Taking away the choice of insta-killing weakens that. It is better to incentivize leaving them up rather than taking that power away.

  • CRogersCRogers Member

    @Demonic said:
    They have said that they want more of a focus on the individual after the rework,

    I'd be fine with an individual focused game where each scav was out for themselves. But objectives are team based - you can't have an individual focused game where the goal marker is team based.

    since they weren't really happy with how it was going in the original and wants it to be different than DBD. That's why we'll have individual leaderboards.

    This gets to another issue that kind of splits the player base. Do points matter or not? I have no desire to be on a leader board. I want to open Deathgarden, play a few games, and then get back to whatever else I have to do. I'm not worried about the points, just the result of that game.

    Other players are different. I think the developers could appeal to both groups, but it looks like the focus will be points play.

    And there are a few options for the Scav's if there are only a couple left. You can wait out the time, fill the blood by bouncing back and doing small amounts, or wait until the remaining people die.

    Sure, there are things you can do, but the game loses so much enjoyment at that point.

    It would since they are suppose to be canonically ruthless predators. Taking away the choice of insta-killing weakens that. It is better to incentivize leaving them up rather than taking that power away.

    I'd prefer it if when I got knocked down I just died.

    To me both current results are bad.
    1: Player is executed, scavs lose power (once they lose two the game has been turned considerably in the Hunter's favor).
    2: Player is spared by the Hunter. This is also silly.

    As an example: have you ever played a sport where you had a group of like six or seven players and two of them were much better than everyone else so it becomes two versus all? Sure, it's awesome when you're part of the two, but really sucks for the rest of the group.

    That's how it feels like with the Hunter when you see him leaving scavs alive for 'points' not for the game. Even in games which we win via getting to 125, if it was because the Hunter was sparing us, it feels like a bad game.

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